The Space: Mental Health And Wellbeing - Episode Four (Podcast)

Join us for the next episode in The Space Podcast as our host Emma Dennis, sits down with Greg Standing, Head of Risk and Insurance. Greg brings a wealth of experience from his 25-year journey with us - from joining as a newly qualified solicitor to becoming an equity partner, and now works in the General Counsel team.

In this episode, listeners will discover how Greg's hearing loss later in life shaped his sense of identity, and how he found the courage to reinvent his professional path, and himself. The conversation explores the emotional and practical challenges of a hidden disability, the importance of trust and safe spaces to talk, and the vital role of allies in fostering inclusion.

Greg shares candid reflections on leadership, wellbeing, and the impact of technology in making workplaces accessible. Together, Emma and Greg explore resilience, identity and reinvention. and highlight the need for genuine inclusion, being a caring colleague, and the power of vulnerability to create change for future generations.

Transcript

Welcome to Series 3 of the Space Podcast, the place where we dive into the stories, voices and ideas shaping a more inclusive workplace at Gowling WLG.

Emma Dennis: I am your host, Emma Dennis, and in today's episode we are exploring resilience, identity and reinvention. I am joined by Greg Standing who leads our Risk Management and Insurance team who has navigated his career whilst losing his hearing. We will talk about how hearing loss impacted the career Greg had built as a Commercial Litigation Partner. The emotional as well as physical journey, reinventing himself and the process of regaining lost confidence. We will also discuss how his experiences have shaped his leadership values and what organisations can do to better support those who encounter disability later in life and career.

This is a conversation about one's sense of oneself, what good looks like for you and endeavouring to make the workplace a better place for future generations. So, let us dive in.

Hello Greg. Welcome and thank you so much for being here.

Greg Standing: You are very welcome. Thank you for asking me.

Emma: Before we start to talk about wellbeing and disability, I wanted to find out a little bit more about your career in the firm. You are a solicitor and joined the firm as a newly qualified back when it was Wragge & Co, back in 2000, and very quickly worked your way up to become an equity partner in 2008. Then nearly a decade later you retired from the partnership and began a new role as Head of Risk and Insurance in our General Counsel team. I wondered if you could tell me a little bit about your current role.

Greg: Sure. I feel very humble and privileged to do my current role. I feel very close to the inner workings of the firm which is ironic actually because as a partner you might assume that I felt that way then but, actually in the role that I do now it is very much all about keeping the firm safe and protected and that is what the General Counsel team does. It is about managing risks you know that impact on the firm's strategy, helping partners and people find solutions to problems. I feel really lucky to be able to say that I really enjoy my job which is not something I have always said.

Emma: It is a good place to be isn't it when you can say you really enjoy what you do. Looking back, did you always know that you wanted to be a lawyer?

Greg: Definitely not no. I mean I think one thing I have noticed is that yes some people it is all they have ever wanted to do is be a partner in a law firm it seems and that was definitely never me. I think like most little boys when I was very young, I just wanted to be a footballer. You did not really think too much about the future and what you are going to do but I think looking back at school, I was good at the essay subjects, I was a good writer and I think as I got older with my A level subjects, looking back I did not know it at the time but I chose very analytical subjects like English literature and history and I guess when you put all those things together it was a bit of a natural calling but I did not realise then.

Emma: I mentioned in the introduction that you have hearing loss and I wondered whether you could explain a little bit more about when and how you first started to notice changes in your hearing?

Greg: Sure, I mean I was not born with hearing loss in fact I have lived more than half my life without it. My career was established, my sense of self identity was established as a fully hearing person. It was in my early 30's that I started to notice that things were not quite what they should be. At that time, I was probably two years into partnership so it was a difficult time to experience something like that. I started to struggle or notice I was struggling in anything other than perfect hearing conditions, I think anywhere with background noise sitting at a distance from people. I really noticed it with very softly spoken females much harder to hear than men. That was 10/15 years ago and at the time what was a mild hearing loss has now progressed to profound.

Emma: Yes. And so, with your hearing loss it is not that you cannot hear, is it more making sense of the sounds?

Greg: Yes very much so, making sense of sound and speeches exactly how I try to explain to people you know a common misperception with hearing loss that if you speak louder or shout that someone will hear you and it is very much not the case and my own type of hearing loss I have lost more of the higher frequencies than the lower frequencies and it is the higher frequencies that enables you to hear consonants in sentences, essentially what you are not getting is the full spectrum of sounds, you are not getting every letter in a word, you are not getting all the words in a sentence and so what you are doing is trying to piece together all the clues that you are not getting. It may not be very much verbally, but you are lip reading, you are picking up on body language, you are picking up on other clues and you are performing mental gymnastics if you like in real time trying to make sense of everything.

Emma: That must be exhausting.

Greg: It is exhausting I would say that is probably almost the hidden disability, the thing that is less obvious to people and people can see that you are struggling to hear sometimes but what people do not see, cannot see, do not really understand is the exhaustion that goes along side it.

Emma: And what was the process like for you in terms of realising that you are experiencing hearing loss and then getting a diagnosis and coming to terms with that.

Greg: Yes, I mean it was horrendous, cannot really dress it up in any other way. I already knew I was losing my hearing. I went to see a consultant just to get it confirmed but he did not tell me anything that I did not already know and he simply said there is nothing we can do. You need to go and get yourself fitted with NHS hearing aids and that was that. I think I went back to work straight after the appointment and just carried on as if nothing had happened but inside I was falling apart a little bit.

Emma: I cannot believe you just went back to work and carried on. Getting that diagnosis and realising what the situation was and then coming back to work, how did that then impact on your confidence and sense of identity and particularly you mentioned you were a partner at the firm at this time

Greg: Yes, I mean fundamentally I think the bottom line was that I just found it very hard to accept, perhaps I did not want to accept it, perhaps I had my blinkers on and I suppose my learned response to adversity or problems was to just work harder. I think that was my learned approach rightly or wrongly to the situation. I just felt it was my problem to solve and the way to solve it would be that I just needed to get my head down and get on with it and work harder.

I have come to learn looking back there was not the time or space to process it. At that time of your life, especially when you have just been made a partner, life is a bit like a juggernaut hurtling forward at 100 miles an hour and you are at the wheel. You do not feel like you can apply the brakes, you cannot suddenly slow down and say hold on a minute, I am struggling a bit with this, I need any help. I had a young family. You have all the expectations that you have of providing for your family, expectations rightly or wrongly of your parents and of yourself actually. You have worked very hard to put yourself in that position and the thought that it could all unravel it is pretty scary, it is pretty frightening.

Emma: Yes, and how did it impact on you emotionally as well?

Greg: It was very emotional. I mean I think the key thing I would say is that I tried to keep it to myself so not show any emotion. At work I tried to product an image of confidence and strength when actually I felt anything but confident and strong. It went straight to my sense of self-identity. I felt ashamed, embarrassed and suffered this quite catastrophic loss of confidence but very much internalised those feelings and as I say carried on and tried to project to the world that I was not feeling that way.

Emma: Did you tell anybody at work?

Greg: I did, it was on a strictly need to know basis. I think the first person I told was my group leader. I told the other partner in my team, but I certainly did not broadcast it to everybody. I was able I think to successfully hide it in many situations. I certainly felt it would be a weakness.

Emma: I think that is a good point you make about feeling like it would be a weakness, I think in the legal sector there is this...like you have said showing vulnerability is a very hard thing for people to do so yes, I completely hear what you are saying.

What were some of the biggest challenges that you then faced in your role as a partner while you are managing this diagnosis and your hearing loss?

Greg: Well the one thing I did not lose was my brain so if I may say so I was, still able to do the core job, solve legal problems for clients and I think I was successful at that in many ways but what I did lose was the ability to communicate confidently and what I felt really held me back was that lack of confidence in effectively networking and building key relationships and that was outside the firm, with clients and prospective clients but also in the office internal networking with colleagues and other partners and I think that really is the life blood of any successful partner.

A lot of relationship building, a lot of networking, it all tends to happen outside the office over dinner and drinks and these are places, these are environments which are difficult for people with hearing loss or background noise and busy places. They were the places I was least comfortable, least able to be myself so it was difficult, and I think on reflection that was probably the one thing that held me back that I found hard.

Emma: So that must have been a really difficult time trying to manage that environment that was not working alongside your hearing loss. What were you thinking, feeling at that time?

Greg: Fear probably was the emotion that springs to mind. It was a hard time to be a partner. I was made up in 2008 just a couple of months after the great financial crash, and it was a difficult time for the firm and the partnership, the economy as a whole and I was pretty certain in my own mind rightly or wrongly at the time that if I showed any type of weakness or vulnerability as a self- employed partner, that would be it for me, and I would be the next one out the door. That all built the sense of fear, I think it was all part of the equation and I say my instinctive response was to work harder and fight and make sure that did not happen to me. In many ways it encouraged all the wrong behaviours.

Emma: So, you are in this period where your hearing declined. You have got this uncertainty internally at work and you are not reaching out for help, and you are trying to keep this to yourself. What was it like day to day for you at that point?

Greg: I think the thing is I was trying to manage everything so acutely it was very difficult to relax, so particularly any networking event or drinks or dinner and even things like partners' meetings, they all became a great stress. I was spending huge amounts of energy just worrying about them which was exhausting and in the day-to-day....yes I was experiencing a lot of, I think you now call micro-aggressions, I would not have called them that at the time I did not really understand that is what they were, but often the small things are usually unintentional. They just erode and destroy your sense of belonging and self-esteem, it could be anything from an eye roll, a tut, a smirk if you do not hear or just that feeling of being cut out of conversation or asking someone else the question instead of you because they think you will not hear them. Just that perception of being ignored, overlooked for opportunities.

Emma: God, and what do you think were the lowest moments you were experiencing at that time?

Greg: I mean there were a few. It is hard to pick but one example would be we held a partners' conference in London one year. I think I sat through the first session and I was sat at the back of the room, there were no microphones and I just could not hear what anyone was saying and I just thought there is no point in me being here and I walked out and got on a train and went straight back to Birmingham, went back to the office and carried on and that was a pretty sad moment.

There were things, probably innocuous things people said without realising that really hurt. A secretary said to me once "whatever happened to you, you used to be such a laugh" and I remember being speechless almost what do you think has happened to me, do I really need to explain that but I think what these comments were doing, they were reaffirming in my own mind about that feeling of....that I was failing, that I had lost myself, that it was my fault, my weakness, eroding, destroying that sense of self-confidence and self-esteem.

Emma: I cannot even begin to imagine how those things made you feel, and I think if we look at today in the firm definitely that behaviour...some of that behaviour you are describing not only is it unacceptable but probably in some cases it would be disciplinary. When these things were happening what was your reaction at the time?

Greg: Yes, I mean I would agree with you I think a lot of it was unacceptable. I think I would react differently now but at the time I was just paralysed by confusion and fear and so I would generally say nothing. As I say all these experiences all they were doing was just re-enforcing that sense of that it was my fault and my problem, so I think I just put myself through this extreme level of stress every day for years.

Emma: I think stress is a really big issue in the legal sector hence why law firms, not just us, most law firms, have got a focus on wellbeing and psychological safety.

Greg: Yes, I mean stress for lawyers, it is a particular problem the profession is grappling with and I actually know that is a fact because I hear that from our insurers all the time. They are very concerned about the high levels of stress in the profession because of the damage that it can cause. And the insurers are very often on the receiving end of that so they are concerned about it. I think for lawyers it is a particular problem because they are by their nature high achievers, conditioned to carrying on under great stress by the very nature of the job they do and I think almost the more you have achieved in life the more you have to lose and so your instinct is to fight and keep fighting long beyond the point where others would have taken themselves out of the firing line, so you keep going and it becomes this vicious circle. I never had a day off. I did not feel like I could ever take a day off. I felt that if I stopped, if I had a day off that would be it and I would lose control.

Emma: Did your hearing loss influence your decision to step away from partnership and then move into the General Counsel team?

Greg: I mean very much so. I endured what I am describing for a long time, for many years, I would like to think I was still successful during those years. I won an FT Innovative Lawyers Award would you believe. At one stage I was a leading individual for Consumer Credit Legal 500 in the year that I retired, I always hit my financial targets.

I say those things because it is important that people understand that having a disability, being unwell does not go hand-in-hand with under-performance but for me it came at that personal cost. I felt that I was a shadow of the real me, the person that I actually was or should have been. I was actually diagnosed with severe depression and anxiety and so yes it was, very much influenced my decision to stop but not just because of the physical barriers but very much the emotional mental health side of the equation as well.

Emma: And was there any particular moment that triggered that decision to then move away from the partnership?

Greg: I would say yes and no. There was certainly what I now think was a sliding doors moment. You will like this Emma, I was one of the early pioneers of what was known as Enable, an early attempt at a networking group for people with disabilities in the firm and I met a lady there called Lisa who worked in HR. She does not work here anymore. She must have picked up on some of the things I said in one of the meetings and she just reached out to me and she just asked me if I was okay and luckily I replied I was not and actually over those couple of years she just created this safe space for us to chat and talk and build trust, perhaps trust that was lacking in other areas for me. And over a couple of years, it was not a quick thing but we had on and off conversations very much at my pace. She just created a safe space where we could talk and build trust and eventually, we started talking about alternatives without any pressure on me at all to commit to anything and I think that was key really, she enabled me to make a decision that was actually in my best interests to make without pressurising me to make that decision. She allowed me to reach my own conclusion and so once I had made the decision, which was the easiest and hardest decision that I needed to ever make it was then just a matter of time to organise a transition.

Emma: I think it is really important to create those safe spaces for people to talk and people to share, particularly if you are struggling with something and I have said this before, that bit of asking for help can make you feel really, really vulnerable so an organisation needs to be able to create that trust to let people open up.

Greg: Yes, I mean for me simply speaking out loud to somebody in a safe environment was just this enormous relief. I cannot describe it in any other way, I had suppressed all these feelings for so long and just to talk about them and for somebody to understand, somebody to actually say 'it is not your fault', it is just incredibly important. I had some counselling outside of the firm I learned a lot from that. I was told I was on the grief cycle so I was actually grieving for my former self if you like. And so going through all the classic stages of grief, denial, and I was very much in denial for a long time, depression, bargaining and acceptance. It is a bit like snake and ladders, you move backwards, you move forward, you go up the ladder, you fall back down again but over the long course you hope you make progression. I am still on the journey, I will probably always still be but simply being able to understand that you are on a journey is incredibly powerful.

Emma: Definitely.

We are going to take a little break but when we come back we will hear more about your experiences.

I want to start part two by asking you Greg a few quickfire questions to get to know you a little bit more, are you ready?

Greg: Sure

Emma: What is the most used app on your phone?

Greg: I would say probably the weather.

Emma: What is one word your friends would use to describe you?

Greg: Calm is a word that comes up a lot which I find ironic.

Emma: And what is the small thing that always makes you smile?

Greg: I would say Mabel, is my dog.

Emma: Ah what type of dog?

Greg: Cocker Spaniel, working cocker.

Emma: Aw. If you could instantly master one still what would it be?

Greg: Hearing obviously!

Emma: [Laughs] What is your dream holiday destination?

Greg: Anywhere hot and sunny so probably Hawaii.

Emma: Ooh nice! What is your go-to karaoke song?

Greg: I would probably say Summer of '69 by Bryan Adams.

Emma: Good choice. Do you do karaoke?

Greg: I do, I am a closet karaoke fan but don't tell anyone that!

Emma: And then a few more questions, favourite smell.

Greg: Home.

Emma: Oh I like that. Text or call?

Greg: Text.

Emma: Sunshine or snow?

Greg: Definitely sunshine, definitely, no hesitation.

Emma: Are you more an introvert or extrovert?

Greg: Introvert.

Emma: Pineapple on pizza, yes or no?

Greg: Yes - I had it last night.

Emma: Correct answer as well. And what was your first job?

Greg: I was a milkman or I worked on a milk float delivering milk which makes me a milkman.

Emma: I miss milk floats and the noise they used to make.

Greg: Pint of silver top, you cannot go wrong.

Emma: So we were talking before the break on how your hearing loss impacted your decision to step away from partnership. Looking back now, do you think that was the right decision?

Greg: Yes definitely the right decision, I would not change anything. I was lucky enough that I think by the time I retired I was ready for it and I had absolutely no regrets. I said that at the time which is a nice thing to be able to feel and say. And after I retired I was demob happy for a while. It felt like the weight of the world was off my shoulders, people in the office starting stopping me and saying 'you look so happy, you look so well', and people never said things like that before so I can only assume that I walked around looking pretty unhappy and grumpy. I just had this realisation I felt like I had lost the best part of a decade of my life, my 30s and early 40s, and I probably should have been in my prime. I now consider those to be lost years in many ways. I had switched off from so many things, I now hear music and songs that are simply from that era that I simply did not know existed, TV programmes, they completely passed me by.

I can remember, it was probably not long after I had retired, I used to be a bit of a runner back in those days and I was running off-road somewhere and I slipped in the mud and I went flying, got absolutely plastered in mud and I was on a non-working day and I remember sitting there in the mud and I just had this sense of lightness and happiness and I was smiling to myself and that realisation, it was an emotion I had not felt for such a long time, it is those little things that there was absolutely no doubt in my mind that I had done the right thing and it transformed my life in many ways.

Emma: How are things different for you now?

Greg: Firstly, I have great colleagues, I am surrounded by really good people, many of them are more than colleagues, they are friends, a very understanding and supportive line manager. With these foundations I can now be myself. I am not wearing a mask to work anymore in the way that I did for many years. I feel like I can lead again now, I mean properly set the right examples by my actions and actually just being open and honest about things that are not so great, challenging the firm actually, calling things out which we are encouraged to do, in the genuine hope that actually it might genuinely benefit future generations coming through, perhaps some people will not have to go through some of the experiences that I went through many years ago.

Emma: We have spoken before a lot around accessibility and I wondered what adjustments or technologies have really helped you most in work?

Greg: I mean you have been great Emma, your team have been great. I think that is something that has really changed actually a lot over the years, that people do go to great efforts now to make everything accessible, make reasonable adjustments and technology has a huge role to play in that increasingly, so for me the advent of Zoom and Teams is just a godsend really with its ability to produce live transcripts. Now with Copilot we have that ability to produce summaries and you can instantly review a meeting to see what you have missed, so things like that have been incredibly helpful but equally what I would say is that even more important than technology and buying things is just the importance of being a good friend, a good neighbour, a kind colleague and looking out for people and also being willing to adapt.

Emma: You mentioned the importance of trust earlier in your decision-making process. I just wanted us to go back to that, what lessons do you think you have learnt?

Greg: Just touching on what you said before that, it sounds a bit twee doesn't it but I have learned that by making myself vulnerable you can make other people brave and I think there were definitely times when I was not talking and internalising things and that was not healthy and I always found it amazingly reassuring to hear other people speak about difficulties and that sense of 'you are not the only one'.

In terms of lessons learned, the trust thing is something I would come back to. Trust is huge, to be able to be vulnerable, to show weakness, you have to trust the people, you have to trust the environment. Without the trust people will not come forward and they will not be open, they will not be honest.

Emma: Definitely. I still remember the first time I met you. I think I have said this to you before but I remember you opened up to me and we were in a meeting room somewhere and you were talking about your experiences and it is really funny because if I look back to that I never in a second would have thought that you would be sat here today doing this with me and it is amazing how time and you opening up about your experiences in different ways has built up to this.

Greg: I just remember something switched in me and I felt ready to talk and actually it was one of the very best things that I ever did and I had so many people approach me privately afterwards to talk about themselves, not about me but it was almost like I had give them permission for them to say what they were worried about, what they were struggling with, someone for other people to identify with and it was incredible to be trusted by those people.

Emma: And how has the firm helped you?

Greg: I have been here 25 years now Emma would you believe and I have mentioned the lady from HR – Lisa – she does not work here anymore but I hope she gets to hear this podcast. She was just fantastic to me, as I say she created that trust and that safe space and in the end, I think led by Lisa, the firm went above and beyond what was necessary to redeploy me essentially into a different role and to make that transition as easy as it could be so Gowling has been very good to me and if I may say so I think I have been quite good for Gowling in a way as well.

Emma: I agree that you have been very good for Gowling but I just wondered if you wanted to share some of the things that you have done and how you have impacted on the firm.

Greg: I guess what I mean is, there probably is not too many people in the firm that experience life on both sides of the fence as I call it. I think I do my job far better now for some of the experiences that I have had, so when I say I think the firm has learned from me, I think I am a case study in many ways, not many people actually have the opportunity to bring different perspectives on things and ultimately make the firm a better place for future generations.

Emma: From my perspective, I really valued your opinion on things so when you share either your experiences and where things could be improved or your input into the Enable network over the years and you sharing your story internally at the firm has been really, really valuable to people.

You are one of our wellbeing champions and you have been for a number of years, I just wondered what led you to decide to take on that role?

Greg: I feel very passionate about helping other people, I feel very fortunate, very privileged to have come through some of my experiences. I have come to realise that I can pass on the benefit of that to others. I truly understand the importance of trust and creating safe spaces for people to talk. The wellbeing champions are a fantastic example of a way in which the firm is doing that but most importantly, whether you are a wellbeing champion or not, but everybody in the firm, every manager, every leader, every colleague needs to step up and make themselves available people to create the environment so that people can be open and honest and talk. It is good to talk.

Emma: How do you feel that all of your experiences have really influenced your leadership style?

Greg: I think indirectly probably I am a far better leader now than I was or would have been without some of the experiences. I think, to come back to trust, trust and openness is the foundation really of what we stand for as a profession, how we interact day-to-day but when you are managing people, absolutely everything can have profoundly positive impacts on people's lives. I do not think that can be underestimated, it is a superpower. You know as a manager and leader you actually have the ability to change people's lives for the better and that is an amazing thing.

So I think what I have learned is the importance of talking to your people, asking how they are, taking an interest in them and it is so simple to do and I just think everybody should do it and it is surprising how many people do not do it, but as a manager or a leader is just to ask people the simple question, 'how can I help you do your job better, what do you need from me?' As a result you get really committed, loyal, high-performing people because they can be themselves and they can be open and they can be honest without worrying and fear.

Emma: With my role and obviously always talking about the importance of diverse teams and what that brings to workplaces, I just wanted to ask how important a diverse team is to you, what is your view on the importance of diversity within teams, whether that is different experiences, perspectives?

Greg: Teams are really interesting, I think I can spot what is a healthy and high-performing team these days. It is everybody playing to their strengths, everybody doing their bit, not one person trying to control everything or do everything themselves in a highly functioning team where everybody is just playing their role. The team becomes greater than the sum of its parts. I think diverse teams will perform better than others but diversity alone is not enough, there has to be inclusion. Without inclusion you do not get team playing and you do not get team performance.

Emma: So, really important point I think something we have really focused on the last few years is that inclusion piece, with our inclusion for all strategy, because you are right you can have the most diverse team in the world but if nobody feels included it means absolutely nothing.

Greg: Someone came out with a quote didn't they? Diversity is being asked to the party, inclusion is being asked to dance.

Emma: You mentioned allies earlier on and I know this is something that you feel quite strongly about so I wanted just to pull back round to that point of the importance of allies.

Greg: Being an ally is not a badge, it is not a lanyard but it is actually using your voice and advocating actively for others. If I go out for a drink or dinner with my colleagues these days they will say 'where is best for you to sit' before taking a seat themselves, it is a really little thing but that is what an ally does, it is because they are thinking about other people. A former colleague of mine, she was my boss actually for a number of years, she was really brilliant in meetings, if we had a meeting and somebody was speaking very quietly or turned up to a virtual meeting and not wearing their microphone, she would ask them to speak up, she would say "I cannot hear what you are saying" and I knew perfectly well she could and she was doing it for my benefit. That is what a real ally does isn't it, they do not draw attention to it but they quietly advocate.

Emma: Definitely, I think allies play a really critical part when you are going through something and you get sick of having to say the same thing over and over again and to have someone else's voice come in, trying to make things better, I think is really important.

What would your advice be to anybody that is listening to this who might find themselves really identifying with your story?

Greg: I guess I have talked about a sense of self-esteem, self-worth and there is a bit of ego tied up in this as well and I think probably one of the things I came to realise for myself, and I saw it in other people is just how important that sense of self-worth and ego is. And I have had to lose the ego and that is quite a large leap to make. I think for some people I think that is probably one of the hardest things. I think I always look around in the partnership and saw people who were maybe unhappy, but they could not imagine a life not doing what they were doing because it was so central to their sense of self-esteem and self-worth and ego. So, I think my advice would probably be to lose the ego and understand what good looks like for you and measure your success against that and not what other people are doing or not what other people have achieved but what is good for you.

Emma: Yes that is a really good piece of advice. I do not think anybody is happy if you are comparing yourself to others, I think it has to be what works for you. What advice would you give to other professionals that are navigating hearing loss?

Greg: I mean I would have to be honest and say it is hard, it is really hard, you know I would not want to dress that up and pretend it is and for anyone listening to this to think that life is perfect now and easy because it is not. But I would say my advice to you, to others is surround yourself with the right people. We have talked about teamwork and the importance of being in a functional team, it is much easier to advocate for yourself if you are within the right environment, within the right team and you have colleagues who you can trust and who you know will help you. So that is my advice really is surround yourself with good people, be honest and if you cannot be honest it probably means you are in the wrong place so you need to try and get yourself into the right place, into the right environment and the right firm and the right team, whatever it would be. And finally, I would say play to your strengths, that is so important. For me I am acutely aware of what I am good at and I am acutely aware of what I am not good at and generally I try and avoid what I am not good at now and I am honest about it and I say "give that to someone else, let someone else do that", I will stick to what I am good at and let other people do what I am not so good at and that is what a team is for.

Emma: What would you tell Greg in 2010 now if you could speak to him?

Greg: [Laughs] Oh that is a really difficult question but obviously Emma I would say in 2025 you are going to be asked to record a podcast with Emma and you will be talking about all these things with a smile on your face. It is something I never would have believed back then. I guess I would say "Look, you have travelled some difficult roads but you will get there eventually, you will get support, you will be able to trust people again, you will perform well in your role and I guess you will rediscover that inner confidence and as I said earlier the things that put you in the position that you were in in the first place".

Emma: A massive thank you Greg for joining me today and for sharing your story and your insights, we really appreciate it.

Greg: Thank you, Emma, I have really enjoyed it, thank you for having me.

Emma: We will be back with a new episode to get to know more talented people here at Gowling WLG. Thank you everyone for listening and have a wonderful week.

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